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Post by Akira on Jan 28, 2008 9:03:34 GMT -4
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Post by earthman on Jan 28, 2008 14:08:55 GMT -4
Hmm....I don't know how to feel about that at all.
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Post by Skeleton Keys on Jan 29, 2008 10:29:20 GMT -4
I don't like this, not at all, not at all.
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Post by stratman on Jan 29, 2008 17:19:02 GMT -4
Well it turns out that there isn't any free music available after all, the record company's have today denied that they ever signed any deal with Qtrax.
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Post by Akira on Jan 29, 2008 19:26:47 GMT -4
Well it turns out that there isn't any free music available after all, the record company's have today denied that they ever signed any deal with Qtrax. Saw that today, apparantly they had only got 1 out of the 4 major companies to sign up? Talk about bad business plan.
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Post by stratman on Jan 31, 2008 5:55:37 GMT -4
I think this article goes some way to explaining why the record industry is currently in such a poor state and therefore reluctant to allow their artists work to be made available for nothing, or next to nothing, (Qtrax, Pandora etc, etc) www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i062b16e707aa99915e4020e2fef62399I don't have any real sympathy for record companies as such (they've done their fair share of 'ripping off' artists over the years) but i do feel sorry for the bands and artists who are trying to earn a living from music but effectively having their work stolen, not just by free downloads (legal or not) but also by companies who are 'bundling' music packages with phones, isp's, music players etc and making themselves alot of money while passing on little or none of it to the artist. As Benjamin Harrison (23rd US president) once said "I pity the man who wants a coat so cheap that the man or woman who produces the cloth will starve in the process." Personally i still by cd's so Bono's not gonna starve on my account ;D
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Post by Mr. G. on Jan 31, 2008 7:00:38 GMT -4
I agree... I have no sympathy for the record industry, and it's because of the record industry that I will never pursue a career as a recording artist (not that I'm capable of that anyway). I do, however, feel sorry for the musicians that these scum bags rip off. I'm not going to get into the whole illegal downloading stuff, as I think that is somewhat of a touchy subject.
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Post by earthman on Jan 31, 2008 15:14:14 GMT -4
I dunnoooo...I think successful musicians still get paid a great deal. Like, record companies are dicks and rip them off hugely, but I think I'd be satisfied if I could make enough as a musician to pay the bills and go out once in a while. Do you really think it's fair that people who write friggin' songs can make millions, whereas people with REAL jobs can't?
Not slammin' career musicians or anything, it's still my goal to be one someday. I'm just sayin'.
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Post by Tonja Renee on Jan 31, 2008 15:46:24 GMT -4
look at a the musicians life - if they are big enough to make the millions of dollars like the most sucessful recording artists... They are hounded by the press constantly, are touring for months at a time, and fans hovering wherever they go... It might be cool for about a week, but I think that would get old pretty quick. They need the excessive amounts of money to be able to separate themselves from their fans.
I don't think 25 bucks an hour would be worth giving up my personal identity and freedom.
The rest of the musicians that aren't famous, are probably just making enough to get by. Out of all the working musicians, only a very very small percentage is making huge excessive dollars...
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Post by stratman on Jan 31, 2008 16:57:50 GMT -4
I dunnoooo...I think successful musicians still get paid a great deal. Like, record companies are penises and rip them off hugely, but I think I'd be satisfied if I could make enough as a musician to pay the bills and go out once in a while. Do you really think it's fair that people who write friggin' songs can make millions, whereas people with REAL jobs can't? Not slammin' career musicians or anything, it's still my goal to be one someday. I'm just sayin'. What's not fair about an artist making big money? if the Rolling Stones settled for a 30k a year salary each where would the rest of their millions go? to the record company? is that fair? as a musician you cannot dictate how successfull your material will be or how much you earn from it, but would you say to your record company 'just give me 50k' if your album went #1 in 27 territories and grossed 30 million, of course not! and why should ya! it's your talent that generated that cash. Record companies have always been robbing b*****ds, but at the moment they're a neccessary evil for bands, in order for the records to be distributed and tours to be funded, but they seriously need to reassess the way they treat their bands. The bigger problem for bands is the companies that are paying a royalty for a song, then distributing that song as if they own the rights to it, it gets downloaded thousands of times but the band only get paid once if at all. The rest of the musicians that aren't famous, are probably just making enough to get by. Out of all the working musicians, only a very very small percentage is making huge excessive dollars... Absolutely correct tonja, something like only 5% of bands actually make any serious money these days, and most of those are big established bands, Rolling Stones, Bon Jovi, U2 etc etc, alot of modern bands, Kaiser Chiefs, Kooks, Razor Light, Arctic Monkeys etc etc are making very little cash despite #1 albums and sell out tours.
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Post by earthman on Jan 31, 2008 17:48:12 GMT -4
Yeah, I see what you're saying, and I agree. All I really meant was that the entertainment industry is sort of a ludicrous thing. There are jobs I think are necessary (like doctors and policemen) and jobs that I see as unnecessary (songwriters, just as an example). I have no idea how much the average police officer gets paid, but I'm willing to bet it's a far cry from what Mick Jagger gets. And that's what bugs me.
Some of you might disagree with me on this, but I don't think the world needs music at all. Now I love music, and I know the rest of you do too, or you wouldn't be members of this forum. But that doesn't change the fact that we could get by without it, if we needed to. It's a luxury, and one I'm very glad we have. But the fact that some schlub can write a few songs, license them out for commercial use, and make as much money as a hardworking citizen with a 9-5 job strikes me as odd.
And you're right, stratman. If I had an album that was worth $30 million, you wouldn't catch me asking for 50k. All I was saying was that if I could make enough through music to pay for my food and shelter, I'd be happy. If I made more, even better. But it's just something I like to do; I'm not after money.
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Post by Akira on Feb 1, 2008 11:30:20 GMT -4
Yeah, I see what you're saying, and I agree. All I really meant was that the entertainment industry is sort of a ludicrous thing. There are jobs I think are necessary (like doctors and policemen) and jobs that I see as unnecessary (songwriters, just as an example). I have no idea how much the average police officer gets paid, but I'm willing to bet it's a far cry from what Mick Jagger gets. And that's what bugs me. Some of you might disagree with me on this, but I don't think the world needs music at all. Now I love music, and I know the rest of you do too, or you wouldn't be members of this forum. But that doesn't change the fact that we could get by without it, if we needed to. It's a luxury, and one I'm very glad we have. But the fact that some schlub can write a few songs, license them out for commercial use, and make as much money as a hardworking citizen with a 9-5 job strikes me as odd. And you're right, stratman. If I had an album that was worth $30 million, you wouldn't catch me asking for 50k. All I was saying was that if I could make enough through music to pay for my food and shelter, I'd be happy. If I made more, even better. But it's just something I like to do; I'm not after money. I think we all need music. Imagine a world with no music what so ever, it'd be really messed up. I can partially see where you're coming from on the making loads of money part, in that some songs that are released as hits are genuinely dookie and makes you wonder how they make so much money off it. I remember last summer hearing a song on the radio, I can't remember what it was called or who the artist was, but the lyrics in the chorus were "I wanna have your baaabbbiiies", over and over again. What a crock of shite. If I ever became a professional musician I'd hope that I'd make a fair share of the money made on the songs I wrote and that I performed. A lot of hard working bands go out of their way to play gigs where ever they can, be promote themselves as much as possible in the hope that they might get the attention of a record company. The money at first comes out of their own pockets and can end up being very costly, so I think it's fair that they get a good amount of money back should they be successful. Being a musician isn't a 9 till 5 job; if you're dedicated it's an all hours job. You can't just turn the inspiration on at 9am then back off at 5pm, sometimes you get the inspiration at 2am when you have to be up at 7am, sometimes you don't get it all and start worrying that you're lacking as a musician or that you wont get anything done for whatever deadline you have. I think getting some payback at least for the emotional difficulties is fair. However there is the more manufactured side of the business which leaves you wondering about the state of the world, so I partially agree with you in some ways. We could just all revert to socialism or something and get paid the same for whatever job we do, wouldn't that be interesting.
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Post by Tonja Renee on Feb 1, 2008 11:31:29 GMT -4
I think you are absolutely right Brendon... it isn't fair that the necessary jobs pay less than the non essential one.
Just goes to show you how screwed up this world is... where people will not buy food so they can buy that 100 buck ticket to a concert they want to see. And how much people are willing to pay to be entertained...
But we live in a world that is focused on self/instant gratification and many people feel its ok to spend their whole earnings on things like that and sacrifice what they really need.
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Post by stratman on Feb 1, 2008 11:59:24 GMT -4
Some of you might disagree with me on this, but I don't think the world needs music at all. Now I love music, and I know the rest of you do too, or you wouldn't be members of this forum. But that doesn't change the fact that we could get by without it, if we needed to. It's a luxury, and one I'm very glad we have. But the fact that some schlub can write a few songs, license them out for commercial use, and make as much money as a hardworking citizen with a 9-5 job strikes me as odd. I assume you mean 'recorded' music or 'songs' being a luxury? afterall music was around for thousands of years before it was ever possible to make a recording, maybe we could get by without music, i don't have a definitive answer to that, but people have been making music ever since cavemen started banging out rhythms in their caves with a coupl'a sticks, i believe that music has the ability to transcend the spoken language, and therefore even if we had no recorded music i think people would possibly still play instruments and make their own music. Best of luck in your endevers, i admire anyone who can make music, and if you can turn your hobby/passion into a career, then GO FOR IT!
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Post by earthman on Feb 1, 2008 13:20:04 GMT -4
This has been one of the friendliest debates of all time. But just out of curiosity, I have another question: Sean said something about getting payback for the emotional difficulties involved with being a musician...what do you guys think is a better reward, money or recognition? Obviously you need money to survive, but is it really worth it to say, write jingles for commercials and not really have anyone care about your work in a significant way? I've never been in a position where I haven't had a place to live or food to eat (thankfully), so I may be completely out of line in saying this, but I think I'd rather be poor and appreciated than rich and totally unknown. I like to think that if I did, by some stroke of luck, make it in the music industry, downloading wouldn't bother me. Because then at least people care, you know? Sure I wouldn't make as much money, but I think the fact that people liked my work enough to download it would be just as fulfilling, if not more. And also, I think the popularity of songs these days doesn't really hinge too much on album sales, but on downloads and maybe even things like Youtube. So I'd basically just be happy for the exposure. But yeah, what do you guys think?
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Post by stratman on Feb 1, 2008 13:47:45 GMT -4
I agree with your point about getting exposure, it's what gets bands 'out there' but, ya gotta have a balance between gettin exposure and earning a living, you can't earn a living in music by giving your music away. The cats gotta eat man! You can get exposure through media such as internet radio, myspace, youtube etc, where people can find and listen to your music, if they like what they hear but don't wanna be tied to the computer to listen to it, then they can download it, for a small fee. You get exposure, the cat gets to eat
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Post by Tonja Renee on Feb 1, 2008 16:33:18 GMT -4
Downloading.... This is a tough one. I don't think you can stop people from sharing music for free on-line. Even before Internet... when I was a kid... I would just record the songs I liked straight off the radio... and taped my friends tapes through the dual recorders... The free exposure is worth something though. Right now artists can put their songs on the internet to get exposure and not pay a thing to do it. If they want to charge for people to download - wouldn't it only be fair that they have to pay to make their music available as well? Maybe if you are going to give something away for free - fine putting it on the net should be free, but if you are going to make money off of it... it will cost ya. See how endless this debate could be...
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Post by Akira on Feb 3, 2008 10:42:31 GMT -4
This has been one of the friendliest debates of all time. But just out of curiosity, I have another question: Sean said something about getting payback for the emotional difficulties involved with being a musician...what do you guys think is a better reward, money or recognition? Obviously you need money to survive, but is it really worth it to say, write jingles for commercials and not really have anyone care about your work in a significant way? I've never been in a position where I haven't had a place to live or food to eat (thankfully), so I may be completely out of line in saying this, but I think I'd rather be poor and appreciated than rich and totally unknown. I like to think that if I did, by some stroke of luck, make it in the music industry, downloading wouldn't bother me. Because then at least people care, you know? Sure I wouldn't make as much money, but I think the fact that people liked my work enough to download it would be just as fulfilling, if not more. And also, I think the popularity of songs these days doesn't really hinge too much on album sales, but on downloads and maybe even things like Youtube. So I'd basically just be happy for the exposure. But yeah, what do you guys think? If we go back to the Doctors and Policemen comparison; they often get recognition for doing something good, but they also get paid in the mean time. To be honest, although it might sound a bit superficial, I'd hope to make some money from my music if I ever got to that point. If there was no way for me to make money from it then i'd stop persuing it, keep it as a pass time and get a different job, because at the end of the day I need money in order to provide for myself and any future family that I may have. Writing jingles for commercials is actually pretty fun; I'd do it. Plus there's nothing stopping you from thinking "hey, that jingle I did for that advert was pretty cool, I should work that in to a full song". In some cases jingles are actually taken from full songs anyway, and for some people this means more exposure. I think a lot of the time, when people or bands say "we're not in it for the money", they're lieing. I bet if you said to them "okay, from now until you die you'll never make a penny from any of the songs you release or gigs that you do", they'd walk away and get a different job. Whether they're making money at the time or not I think most people's aim is to eventually make some money, at least enough to get by (rather than bathing in 300,000 newly hatched chicks bought with your millions of gold pieces). Of course this is in reference to a full time band rather than a bit of fun on the side. Either way, I'd still persue writing songs, whether as a profession or not, because at the end of the day it's fun. It's nice sometimes to not have that "pressure" so get things done; grass is always greener.
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