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Post by earthman on Nov 20, 2007 18:26:37 GMT -4
Saw a debate about this on that other forum and couldn't help posting a reply. I figured I might as well drag it on over here, as you folks are much cooler. So what do you think about global warming? Believe in it? Why or why not? Here's what I said on that other forum: There's this documentary called "The Great Global Warming Swindle" that I've seen bits of that gives a bunch of pretty convincing arguments against the whole thing. I've yet to see the whole thing, though. I dunno, I think it would be stupid to ignore the whole thing completely. Obviously stuff humans are doing aren't great for the environment and will probably come back to bite us in the ass someday, but I don't believe in this "Earth will be totally flooded in 25 years" stuff. I do think we need to quit wasting resources and come up with a new way of getting power right away - not because it's causing the earth to warm, necessarily, but rather because once we do find a new power source, we're going to need all the fossil fuels we've got to make the transition. However, I was discussing this with my cousin one day and she made a pretty good point. She said something like, "Well, I'm still of the mindset where if you need to lie to people a little bit to get them scared enough to do something, then I think that's understandable. People are stupid and lazy and won't make any effort towards any real change unless they think the world is coming to an end." And, you know. She's right. So while I don't think it's as big of a deal (yet) as say, Al Gore is making it out to be, I can understand why such a big deal is being made.
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Post by Akira on Nov 20, 2007 18:41:32 GMT -4
Over here all the political parties have jumped on to the "green bandwagon"; it's really annoying.
I dunno whether global warming is a reality or not, however there are changes happening to the earth - whether it be global warming or not - and I think we need to look at them more closely.
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Post by Mr. G. on Nov 20, 2007 21:25:10 GMT -4
I agree with both of you. "Green" really is annoying as hell, but look at it this way... If all this global warming stuff IS real, and we DON'T do anything, the outcome is going to suck... If it's NOT real, and we DO start doing something about it, what's the harm in a cleaner lifestyle that's better for the environment? If it IS real, and we DO start doing something about it, then we stand a much better chance at surviving it, and possibly correcting it. I think, in the long run, it is best that we bite the bullet and start taking action for our actions.
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Hunter60
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Post by Hunter60 on Nov 20, 2007 21:27:27 GMT -4
I don't think that there's any doubt that the earth is going through some changes environmentally. That's a given. But is it the apocolypse like "they" keep trying to sell to us? Not sure about that. Personally, I think that humans and our consumption based nature may have sped up the process somewhat, I don't think that it's all on us. It's nature. I heard a guy say once that "Mankind is an irritant to the planet. Like fleas. And Mother Nature is getting ready to shake us off". Not sure if that's all that true but I really love the image. We should be trying to live a little more sensibly but I am not about to go Begley and start driving a car that runs on vegetable oil and gets up to rip-roaring speeds of 15 mph. Nope. Besides, I'm old. I've only got a limited amount of time left on this rock.
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Raskolnikov
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Post by Raskolnikov on Nov 20, 2007 21:34:41 GMT -4
I've done a lot of reading and I've come to the conclusion that human-related greenhouse emissions ( especially CO 2) have little to nothing to do with the warming we've seen lately. I have a great love for Science so I have a good understanding of what constitutes 'hypothesis,' 'theory' and 'good scientific evidence.' Global warming as a function of CO 2 emissions simply fails to qualify – it is not at all consistent with the facts at hand. Unfortunately, it has effectively become dogmatic law in the public conscience so we're not going to see this tumor removed from our collective body for quite some time. That said, I do think it is our responsibility and in our best interests to be cleaner; to pollute less and conserve more. However, we need to go about it more rationally than we are now. For instance, few know this but recycling paper pollutes more and consumes more energy than it does to throw out our refuse and manufacture virgin paper. Consequently, it's also A LOT more expensive to the consumer. Furthermore, paper cannot be recycled indefinitely; every time you recycle paper, the grains of pulp get shorter and shorter until the point where they will no longer bond with each other. Some argue that the point becomes to save a tree but the fact is that (at least in the Western world) if you order lumber or paper that requires a tree be cut down, you've effectively just placed an order for new trees to be planted because lumber companies have no desire to go out of business. Most of the recycling we do has a very similar story – just think of all the extra money and energy we're investing with the intention of being "greener" and the end result is that we're only polluting more. The big exception to this rule would be metals – recycling your soda cans and scrap metal is much more efficient than starting from scratch. I do think we need to quit wasting resources and come up with a new way of getting power right away - not because it's causing the earth to warm, necessarily, but rather because once we do find a new power source, we're going to need all the fossil fuels we've got to make the transition. We have plenty of fossil fuels (including oil) to last us well into the next century – even including population and economic growth. We still need to transition to newer, better forms of energy, but not because we're going to run out soon. However, I was discussing this with my cousin one day and she made a pretty good point. She said something like, "Well, I'm still of the mindset where if you need to lie to people a little bit to get them scared enough to do something, then I think that's understandable. People are stupid and lazy and won't make any effort towards any real change unless they think the world is coming to an end." And, you know. She's right. So while I don't think it's as big of a deal (yet) as say, Al Gore is making it out to be, I can understand why such a big deal is being made. Your cousin is wrong for a number of reasons. I'm going to skip over my moral revulsion at lying to the public as a matter of policy and go straight to the negative side-effects of doing so. First of all, lying to people and trying to scare them into a desired policy has a nasty habit of backfiring. People eventually figure out that you're lying and end up reversing to the opposite extreme of where you were trying to direct them; they throw the baby out with the bathwater. A good example of this is sexual education: Abstinence-only sex ed programs typically rely in large part on a mixture of misinformation and scare tactics to discourage kids from having premarital sex. I've actually heard one of these "educators" claim that the AIDS virus was small enough that it can pass through the microscopic holes in a latex condom. So once children start to figure out that some of what they're being told is a lie, then they not only brain-dump the lies and propaganda, they also throw out the factual information they were given along side it and they have no useful knowledge of contraception. The end result: School districts with abstinence-only sex ed programs invariably have STD and teen pregnancy rates which are DOUBLE AND TRIPLE the national average. Next, and far more importantly, using Global Warming and CO 2 emissions as a catalyst for making people more environmentally conscious ultimately causes to spend money where it isn't needed. CO 2 is relatively harmless (it in fact has a documented fertilizing effect on plants). While I agree that we shouldn't be dumping it in the atmosphere at will, the horrible truth is that reducing our CO 2 emissions at the rate that the "green" crowd wants us to is incredibly expensive and THAT MONEY COULD BE USED TO FEED PEOPLE. It could be used to provide fresh water millions of people (clean water is actually relatively cheap to provide in most cases and provides huge benefits to those who have access to it). It could be used to fight erosion, develop better crops – so many things that would actually help millions and millions of people. But that isn't what's happening and it's a f*cking tragedy.
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Raskolnikov
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Post by Raskolnikov on Nov 20, 2007 21:48:05 GMT -4
To anyone who's honestly interested in having an informed opinion on all of this, I cannot recommend this book enough: The Skeptical EnvironmentalistIt shouldn't be where you end your search for information, but it's a really good start.
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Post by daardvark on Nov 20, 2007 22:00:21 GMT -4
I've done a lot of reading and I've come to the conclusion that human-related greenhouse emissions ( especially CO 2) have little to nothing to do with the warming we've seen lately. Well said. I only quoted a small portion of your statement but that's all I needed. Fear mongering, lies, and disinformation cause us to spend valuable resources trying to solve a solution in need of a problem. The earth has under gone ice ages and other extremes many times in it's long history. I do agree that trying to consume less is a good thing. But if you think I'm walking 30 mile to work........ guess again. Exalt for our man in uniform. Good luck and God's speed in all you do. Not sure if you're a marine, but the seniment is the same. Semper Fidelis
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Raskolnikov
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Post by Raskolnikov on Nov 20, 2007 22:38:22 GMT -4
Exalt for our man in uniform. Good luck and God's speed in all you do. Not sure if you're a marine, but the seniment is the same. Semper Fidelis Many thanks! (I'm a Soldier, by the way.)
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Rustee
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Post by Rustee on Nov 20, 2007 23:19:56 GMT -4
Well said indeed Rask. I haven't done a thesis on the subject either, but so far I've come to similar conclusions. This issue has gone far beyond the proper bounds of ethical or even rational science and turned into a vehicle for power driven politicians and activists. This article discusses (and links to) many scientific studies that refute many of the alarmists' claims, especially regarding CO2.
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Post by daardvark on Nov 21, 2007 0:03:46 GMT -4
Raskolnikov:
My apologies. I'm not sure what the soldier says to show unity and solidarity. I do want you to know that I have the utmost respect for what you do. In my eyes you (all who are serving in the military) are heroes and this country owes you a great debt for the many sacrifices you and yours have given to we, who (not me), are not readily appreciative.
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Rustee
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Post by Rustee on Nov 21, 2007 0:12:18 GMT -4
Isn't it the Army that simply says "hooah!" for all kinds of uses, but could certainly be applicable here? So, hooah to ya Rask...hooah!
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Raskolnikov
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Post by Raskolnikov on Nov 21, 2007 0:36:48 GMT -4
My apologies. It's cool – no offense taken.
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jeffhx
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wait for that crescendo!
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Post by jeffhx on Nov 21, 2007 11:15:00 GMT -4
meh i dont think we're contributing to the problem (maybe just a tiny bit?).... i somehow think this rock we live in had seen far worse...its been what 4 billion yrs old...i agree with the flea shaking terminology...its probably just a cycle in its own life... but what do i know
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taylormade
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Post by taylormade on Nov 21, 2007 12:46:05 GMT -4
Interesting topic! There's a Showtime series starring Penn and Teller called Bullshit! that deals with a lot of pop culture type phenoms. They take on bottled water, organized religion, and recycling. The recycling episode is awesome. You can find it, and I think three others per DVD at Blockbuster. I can't recall if it's season 1 or 2. As far as global warming goes: George Carlin does a great bit on it. He talks about what the earth has been through and then chuckles at the arrogance of some people who think plastic can ruin it all. Check it out here: www.spikedhumor.com/articles/130122/George_Carlin_on_Global_Warming.htmlI love people who think that they can predict the weather hundreds of year from now when they can't tell you accurately whether it's going to rain in Tampa tomorrow.
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Post by Akira on Nov 21, 2007 13:56:42 GMT -4
I do agree that trying to consume less is a good thing. But if you think I'm walking 30 mile to work........ guess again. That really REALLY annoys me, and I don't even work. Being able to drive isn't a choice, it's a necessity it seems; you need to be able to drive just to get on with things. Politicians over here are trying their hardest to get people to use their cars less, by ways of higher taxation; makes you wonder what the real motive is to be honest.
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Raskolnikov
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Post by Raskolnikov on Nov 21, 2007 14:16:22 GMT -4
Congress never has problems passing their own pay raises...
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Post by daardvark on Nov 21, 2007 15:07:27 GMT -4
I do agree that trying to consume less is a good thing. But if you think I'm walking 30 mile to work........ guess again. That really REALLY annoys me, and I don't even work. Being able to drive isn't a choice, it's a necessity it seems; you need to be able to drive just to get on with things. Politicians over here are trying their hardest to get people to use their cars less, by ways of higher taxation; makes you wonder what the real motive is to be honest. My statement annoys you? I'm not sure I read your comment right.
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hdj
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Post by hdj on Nov 21, 2007 15:41:22 GMT -4
We all just need to quit farting, that would help the ozone....might make everyone meaner, but that's another story...
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hdj
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Post by hdj on Nov 21, 2007 15:44:31 GMT -4
For real, here was my post on that other forum.....
"My opinions....
There's no such thing as global warming caused by humans.....just b/c the climate is going through it's normal shift as we humans are on earth, then we humans are gonna be pointing fingers and trying to find the reason for it all, or I should say, make up a reason for it all...
Ice melting will not cause the ocean levels to rise....it's simple displacement as someone mentioned before...the only thing that melting glaciers will affect is the salinity of the oceans....
Bunch of hippies!"
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Post by daardvark on Nov 21, 2007 16:24:12 GMT -4
For real, here was my post on that other forum..... "My opinions.... There's no such thing as global warming caused by humans.....just b/c the climate is going through it's normal shift as we humans are on earth, then we humans are gonna be pointing fingers and trying to find the reason for it all, or I should say, make up a reason for it all... Ice melting will not cause the ocean levels to rise....it's simple displacement as someone mentioned before...the only thing that melting glaciers will affect is the salinity of the oceans.... Bunch of hippies!" I've heard you kick hippies ;D
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